I’m not sure where the mainstream doom and gloom forecasters are getting the breezy part of the forecast for tomorrow. It simply isn’t going to happen. The breeze is definitely on for the Straits, it’s already 31 knots from the west at Race Rocks as part of the onshore flow that will continue to develop through today and then ease after midnight. Unfortunately, this weekend will look much like last weekend with the onshore flow coming down the Straits and through the Chehalis Gap creating a convergence zone that will extend roughly from Pt. No Pt. to the San Juan Islands, right over the race course. That’s the bad news. The good news is that we’ll have an ebb to get us out of the starting area and up to the zone. Lunch in Kingston anyone?
Tidal Currents in Admiralty Inlet.
0818 3.32 knots Ebb
1142 Slack
1430 2.37 knots Flood
1724 Slack
2030 2.42 knots Ebb
2336 Slack
Click to enlarge any image:
The deal is that there probably isn’t any good news. No wind or very light air over Admiralty Inlet with the tide turning against us around noon. We are, in fact, paying for the very nice weather we’ve had the last couple of days. Record High temps, no rain, etc etc. It’s all going to change with the temperatures dropping, and rain coming on shore with a weak cold front you can plainly see in the Satellite Pics. It is already showing up on the Doppler from Langley Hill.
The charts show not much gradient over the Pacific Northwest for the next couple of days with nice weather returning by about mid-week.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
While we certainly had enough rain last weekend, get ready for some great weather this coming week. The last Wednesday night race was a bit chilly but that is springtime sailing in the Northwest, it’s only going to get better. Besides, as long as we have wind, who cares? In addition, we certainly didn’t get clobbered with rain the way the north side of Kauai did, getting 28” of rain in 24 hours. The house we used to stay at that was located on the beach at Hanalei Bay at the pier, was destroyed when the Hanalei River went way over its banks. I’m trying to get some pictures but it’s very sad.
So while we will have a weak cold front move over us tonight and bring a little more rain to the area, the post-frontal system will have high pressure build into the region over the weekend. As you can see from the 500MB charts, a thermal low pressure will set up along the Oregon coast Monday and Tuesday as an upper ridge shifts over the Pacific Northwest bringing us some nice and warm weather.
Click to enlarge any image.
As we say, the best day for breeze in the Northwest is the first day the ridge of high pressure starts to build over our area. That should be tomorrow, however, we will be in an area of strong onshore flow which will mean a strong westerly in the Straits as well as a strong flow in through the Chehalis Gap. Those winds have to meet somewhere and that will be in the Central Sound at least for tomorrow morning. By around midday, the northerly should move down the Sound and we should have 8-10 knots of northerly building slightly as the afternoon wears on.
Sunday should be even better with 10-15 knots of northerly in the morning and then building into the 18-20 knot range by late afternoon. We should be able to get plenty of races in this weekend with lots of tired sailors showing up for work on Monday.
There will be tides but not all that bad and depending on how much clearing we have Saturday morning, the start of the flood should bring the stronger, steadier northerly down with it.
Tidal Currents at West Point.
0900 Slack
1030 Ebb .35 knots
1224 Slack
1900 Flood 1.12 knots
Sunday
1012 Slack
1130 Ebb .21 knots
1318 Slack
1954 Flood 1.03 knots
It’s worthwhile to look at the graph of tidal current velocities to explain the gap (≈6 hours, instead of the usual 3) between the midday slack and max flood.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
March may have been drier than normal, however, April will more than make up for that! At about the ½ way point in the month, we are only about an inch above the norm compared to last year at this time when we were 8” above normal. That will change over the weekend. Just take a look at the Water Vapor Imagery from this morning which really does look like a firehose aimed right at the Northwest.
The most breeze will certainly be today as the strong warm front shown in the charts moves inland. The winds will ease late tonight as the cold front shown behind the warm front slowly moves into the Pacific NW. This cold front will eventually stall over Western Washington on Saturday before it begins to dissipate. This will result in a light northerly flow on Sunday as a weak cold front shift east into Oregon. By Sunday evening we can expect weak onshore flow as this system moves inland. All the while accompanied by rain. Welcome to Spring in the Pacific Northwest.
Click any image to enlarge.
This will keep sailors on their toes both Saturday and Sunday. Saturday morning expect 8-12 from the south until around noon when it will start to drop off. Another southerly pulse of breeze will probably show up from the SSE by mid-afternoon this could be as high as 20 knots. This will ease just after sunset as flow starts down the Straits and into the Sound. Sunday will just be light northerlies becoming spotty by midday. At least it will still be raining but not nearly as much as we are expecting tomorrow. This upcoming week will be interesting as you look at the surface chart for Tuesday which shows a vigorous low-pressure system on the International Dateline with a very long frontal system attached and moving our way, possibly by next weekend.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
Another very interesting week of weather especially if you were having to work in the upper Midwest, or in New England. Our big weather story has been about the low-pressure system that will brush us tomorrow. Earlier in the week, it was forecast to come ashore somewhere along the central to north coast of Washington. It is a compact and intense system and had it come ashore it would have done some damage. Right now it appears it will make landfall sometime Sunday near mid-Vancouver Island. The associated cold front will be over us mid-day tomorrow. The coast will bear the brunt of this storm while the Sound will probably see 25-30 knots of southerly late Saturday afternoon and into the evening hours, easing after midnight.
Nothing is currently showing up on the Doppler Radar however, the satellite picture gives us a very clear view of this low-pressure system and its cold front. We have generally light southeasterly flow over the area now and this will increase as the system approaches starting late this afternoon and into the evening. With the uncertainty of how this low will interact with the coast, the models are not in agreement as to how much wind we’ll have in the Sound and when it may or may not arrive.
The first start is at 1100 hours and there should be about 12-18 knots of southerly. This will go up and down over the course of the day. This is a reverse start so the battle on the upwind leg will be to keep your air clear. Tides will not be much of a factor.
Tidal Currents at West Point
0706 .47 knots Flood
1006 Slack
1136 .17 knots Ebb
1424 Slack
1924 .86 knots Flood
So you will want to get a clear air start and then hold starboard tack to the breakwater and then work your way up under West Point as there will still be some wind-generated surface current against you. At West Point head, across the Sound on port tack. Go all the way to the Bainbridge shore to again get out of what current there is. There should be a slight knock as you get to Bainbridge so sail well into it before you tack to starboard and work your way up to the Rock. You’ll probably do a port pole set however as you get past all the rocks headed north get set up to gybe and get aimed at West Point. At West Point, the wind may shift slightly to the SSE and become puffy as the wind starts to come out of the Ship Canal. Get set-up to do your drop early and start negotiating with the boats around you for buoy room at Meadow Point. As you sail past the finish line be sure to sight it and figure out which end is favored. Perfect sail handling at this mark will pay big dividends. You’ll need to tack out from the beach fairly quickly so make sure that is all part of your rounding plan. You should tack back to starboard once you can make the beach between the bathhouse and the north end of the breakwater. There will be a knock as you get in close to the beach. Tack when you can lay the favored end. If it’s the buoy end put a little in the bank because the current from the Ship Canal will set you out.
I also had a great question this week once it looked like it might be breezy and we could be in for some heavy weather. The question was “How do you define heavy weather?” The answer is that you define what heavy weather is and that is the point where you and your crew are no longer comfortable sailing in the existing conditions and there exists the possibility of hurting someone or doing damage to the vessel. So for tomorrow, we will all be in life jackets and safety harnesses and if it’s cranking, we may just stay at the dock. Nothing wrong with that!
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
The irrepressible Bruce not only gave the South Straits racers their own forecast, he’s clueing the rest of us in as well.
For an Easter weekend, not all bad. The Straits guys and gals got off this morning in light conditions however the wind is building as they head towards the Ballenas mark. Currently, they have about 15 from the west at Halibut Bank. Unfortunately, it will probably drop from here on.
Click to enlarge images.
The current chart shows a cold front that is moving to the SE across the area today. Post frontal activity will create a brief period of onshore flow today which will create small craft warnings in the Straits of Juan de Fuca late this afternoon and into the evening. Expect a light northerly late tonight or early Saturday due to that a 1044MB High that is situated over eastern BC and Alberta. This will dissipate and the flow will become onshore again Saturday afternoon with small craft warnings again being posted for the Straits and the northern part of Admiralty Inlet. You can expect the onshore flow to strengthen Sunday before weakening on Monday.
The satellite picture shows some clouds but not much in the way of rain so it really looks like a pretty nice weekend. So get out and get the boat ready for some nice springtime sailing. Also, don’t forget about the Sloop Tavern Blakely Rock Benefit Race next weekend. Great event for a great cause and we’ll have an in-depth forecast for you next Friday.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
As you can see from the charts, we are between a series of relatively weak weather systems. Today we have a weak warm front stalled along the US/Canadian border. A weak cold front will shift inland on Friday. The models are NOT in agreement about how fast or when this will move in. Weak high-pressure (1027MB) off the Oregon and Washington Coast will maintain a weak onshore flow this weekend. In the satellite picture you’ll see some weak cloud structure but very little to define any weather systems.
Click to enlarge images.
The UW model is perhaps the most optimistic forecasting winds of 15 knots from the west for the start and then building into the 15-20 knot range from the NW as you work your way towards Ballenas. This should start to ease as the gradient weakens over the area by about mid-afternoon.
This will continue to ease through the evening dropping to around 10 knots from the West by mid evening 2100 hrs. Around midnight there will be patches of breeze with another blast of NW 15 filling down the Straits until about 0300 Saturday when it will start to die off.
After 0300 a conflict will develop between the remnants of the low to NE of the race area and the onshore flow bringing light air to the mainland side of the course and spotty NW breeze to the Vancouver Island side of the course. Expect drainage winds out of Howe Sound and spotty breeze over the Straits.
Running the polars for the TP-52’s, I have them around the course in 36 hours.
Sorry about that.
One of the keys to the race will be how and when this weak frontal system passes over the race course. The best way is to chart the barometric pressure readings as provided by Environment Canada on the VHF Wx . Note particularly Halibut Bank, Sentry Shoal, South Brooks, La Perouse Bank, and Buoy JA at the mouth of the Straits of JdF. When the pressure finally bottoms out and starts to rise that will signal the onshore flow starting to build.
When the pressure quits building, start looking for the windseeker.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
Welcome to springtime in the Pacific Northwest! Last night it was spin the weather wheel and don’t be surprised at what comes up. Rain, snow, sleet, hail, and localized gusty winds all made guest appearances depending upon where you were. That is, however, spring in the Pacific Northwest.
This mornings surface analysis chart shows a weak area of low pressure (1000MB) with an attached frontal system just off our coast. Normally this would bode well for wind tomorrow, however, check the 500MB charts and you will see that the jet stream will drag this system slowly to the south and weaken it overnight. Instead of the low moving through the Salish Sea, it will come ashore near the southern Oregon coast late Saturday and disappear by Sunday. This system will still supply some wet weather over the weekend. The High-pressure (1030MB) you see off of Northern California will build and drift slowly to the East giving us some nice weather and warming temperatures next week. Look at the 500MB charts and as you can see, the jet stream will come across the Pacific at 30N-35N picking up the warmer air before arcing over that high and coming into our area. Low-pressure systems will still come into our area however they are weakening.
As for the Tree Tree Point Race, there will be tides, just not very much of them. At least they’ll be against us.
Tidal Current at West Point.
0748 Max Flood .53 knts
1024 Slack
1200 Max Ebb .29 knts
1406 Slack
2024 Max Flood 1.01 knts
The models are in agreement about what will happen tomorrow. They are NOT in agreement about when it will happen, not unusual. The basic situation is that we’ll start in a light (5-10 knots) southwesterly, it will get light about mid-day before it finally fills down from the north at 5-10 knots around mid-afternoon, winds generally closer to 5 than 10. Very little time under spinnaker but a lot of time beating. The Univ of Washington model is more optimistic with winds closer to 10 than to 5. With the GFS model, I have Crossfire around the course in just under six hours. The Race Committee did the right thing the last time when it looked like it was going to get flukey, I suspect they’ll do the same tomorrow. As my friend Nigel says, “There’s no real racing south of Alki.” The wind will be better in the central Sound north of Alki and south of Kingston.
Having said that, the problem is that as the wind goes into transition, it will die on the east side of the Sound first which will make marks placed there (Duwamish Head, Buchan Buoy, Pt. Wells)challenging.
A look deep into the crystal ball for next weekend, South Straits of Georgia. The high-pressure that is setting up offshore will tend to drift to the northwest and the gradient will ease over the area. The start is liable to be light on Friday however it does appear that by Friday afternoon the gradient will tighten and there should be a nice northwesterly over the race course. So for now, and remember woefully inaccurate, it doesn’t look like a gear buster. We’ll have a special South Straits update this Thursday, with a regular Bruce’s Briefs on Friday.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
All in all, it looks like a pretty nice stretch of great weather coming up. Even though the charts don’t really show much, it does suggest that with that area of weak high-pressure centered off of San Francisco and weak low-pressure inland, there will be some onshore flow over this evening, strengthening tomorrow afternoon. This will then weaken late Saturday and into Sunday. What is really interesting is the Tuesday chart which shows a well-developed low-pressure system poised to sweep into California. Sure they can always use the rain but maybe not so much so quickly.
What does this mean for the GHYC Islands Race? It should be, as always, a pretty great event. Even if there’s no wind it’s always a pretty great time down there. That yacht club does know how to do it right. This year with a weak onshore flow coming in through the Chehalis Gap it’s liable to be a bit of a light southerly for the start. As the morning goes on and the onshore flow builds this should result in a 5-10 knot southwesterly over most of the central and south Sound for most of the rest of the day. With a constant ebb tide in Colvos, you’ll have flat water plus with abundant sunshine it should be pretty pleasant. Don’t forget the sunblock.
For tactics it will be pretty straight forward. After the start, find a clear lane to the strongest current going north in Colvos. Once you find the axis of the current, keep your air clear and gybe aggressively to stay in the current and clear air. Once you round the top mark it will be better to stay to the west in Colvos as the wind will stay out of the SW which will mean the puffs will be lifts on starboard tack. The starboard tacks will be long tacks so when you put the jib up, have it in the port groove of the headstay. The other fact about upwind in a SW in Colvos, is that puffs roll off the hill and down to the water and then flatten out. This means you don’t want to get too close to the beach (lighter air) and your drivers and trimmers are going to be working very hard sailing south. Hard work will be rewarded. Also, don’t underestimate how far bad air can effect you as you go upwind in 6-10 knots. As a rough rule of thumb figure 15-20 times mast height of the boat in front of you is how far back it will slow you down.
While on Saturday it could be cranking in the Straits from the west, Sunday looks very light over the entire Northwest.
Have a great weekend and Happy St. Patrick’s Day to all.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
The good news? Break out the sunblock and put away the woolies! The bad news? Let’s hope the RC sets an alternative course as it is going to be light. All the models are somewhat in agreement on that with some even showing up to six knots of wind from the due north at the start. Most, however, show less than five knots. I currently have Crossfire around the course in just over six hours, the J-35 around in just over nine hours. Remember that in four knots of wind Crossfire can sail at six knots and the rest of us are not nearly that fast. The other problem will be that the boats with tallest masts will greatly benefit as there will be more wind above 45-50 feet off the water.
The surface analysis for today shows yesterdays front over eastern Washington with another front poised menacingly off the coast. The problem is that front is moving almost due north and is not headed towards us. This will cause the onshore flow to ease through midday. By this afternoon, high pressure(1010MB to the north and 1017MB off the coast) will join forces and move to the east which will spread the gradient and drop the breeze. High pressure will move east of the Cascades over the weekend giving increasing offshore flow, beautiful weather and the highest temperatures so far this year. Don’t get too worried that this is the start of our summer heat wave, a cold front will move into the coastal waters on Tuesday bringing us cooler temps, mountain snow, and valley rain. Even though it’s about a month early I think we’ve had our last freezing temp the Seattle area. I base this on the fact that while we are still north of the jet stream, it is moving inexorably northward as the days get longer and the air in the northern hemisphere warms. The air flowing into the NW is also coming from the SW and is no longer coming out of the Canadian interior.
Tides at West Point
0718 Flood .4 knots
1054 Slack
1236 Ebb .21 knots
1512 Slack
2036 Flood .78 knots
Tidal Current Foulweather Bluff
1048 Slack
1448 Ebb 1.78 knots
1906 Slack
Tides won’t be much of an issue unless you really can get up to Scatchet Head by noon as at that time there will still be about a knot of tide running to the west at the buoy. In this weather pattern, the northerly wind will lighten significantly and the velocity of the current will increase as you approach the mark. Plan accordingly.
The worst part of this is that there may be enough wind to start and get you up to at Kingston. After that, the breeze will continue to ease off and die in the center of the Sound. Classic Puget Sound sucker punch. Then as it dies off, watch for the Swihart effect to kick in. This is where that in the absence of a pressure gradient over the Salish Sea, the flood tide will bring a northerly down the Sound. Watch for more northerly in the very late afternoon and becoming around 10 knots by early evening. Well after dark and long after scurvy has started to set in on the crew.
Haven’t been much help on where to go in this race because of the lack of wind. There are still some general principles. With ebb tide and light air, get to the west side of the Sound. What breeze there is will be there. On the trip home, the northerly will build on the west side first and the flood will start down the west shore first.
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)
It’s the first week of March so it must be time for CYC’s Center Sound Series, one of our favorites. True, it’s not like the days of having 500 boats out there but with around 80 there will still be some great racing. Earlier this week it was looking a bit grim as in Crossfire taking 12 hours to complete the course. As they do in the Pacific Northwest, things change. Now it appears things might not be so bad. Some forecasts are calling for 15-18 from the NNW while others are saying 5-10 from the NNW. We’ll just see who shows up.
One thing we do know is that the tides will for sure be in play however even they won’t be too bad. There will be varying amounts of ebb from 0630 until slack at noon. I’ve included a chart to explain this oddity.
Tidal Current at West Point
0630 Ebb .32 knts
0912 Ebb .10 knts
1054 Ebb .15 knts
1206 Slack
1448 Flood .93 knts
1718 Slack
1900 Ebb .46 the knts
Looking at the charts, you’ll see a 996 MB low off the Oregon coast which will remain nearly stationary as it slowly weakens becoming a 1006MB by tomorrow morning. This low will dissipate late Sunday. Meanwhile, high pressure (1040MB) over British Columbia will drift slowly SSE resulting in weak offshore flow over the area through Saturday. This flow will become nearly flat on Sunday. How fast this moves our way will determine just how much wind we’ll have over the course. The best way to check this is to note barometric pressure at Bellingham(currently 1006.7), Portland(1006.6), and Astoria (1004.4). Then check the gradient tomorrow morning on VHF when you get to the boat and see how much this has changed. Generally speaking, if you take the difference in MB’s and between Bellingham and Portland and multiply times 5 that will give you the windspeed in knots. This is more accurate when the pressure is higher in the south. When it’s higher in the north it is less so.
Assuming it’s a northerly, the key to success tomorrow will be getting a clean start off the line and then watch your COG and SOG to make sure you are in the strongest ebb. You’ll hold starboard off the line staying in clear air, there should be slightly more wind in the center Sound. You’ll want to tack when you can lay the mark however you may want to tack early as there may be a lift on port as you work up the Sound. Tacking early will also give you time once you tack back to starboard to get the pole and gear setup which ideally you would have done at the dock. It should be a starboard tack set.
You’ll want to hold the starboard tack on the run. As you get over near the Bainbridge shore you’ll watch the true wind speed, when it starts to drop, that’s the time to gybe. You are better off to come into the Rock on starboard, just know where all the rocks are! You’ll have to do the drop and gybe immediately, then get set-up to drop the daffodils for Kelly.
On the beat back to West Point, it will be hold port tack from the Rock to Four Mile Rock under Magnolia. The flood may have started however there may still be some ebb along the shore from Four Mile to West Point, just don’t get into too close. At least in the flood, you shouldn’t be on for long.
From West Point to the finish, you’ll want to hold starboard off of West Point until you can tack and make the entrance buoys. Really pay attention to where the finish line is and don’t tack too many times but really maintain a clear air lane to the finish.
Good luck, be safe and have a great time.
Ed. Note: Thanks again, Bruce, for the insights. There are going to be some interesting tales to tell, from this, and all the other, Center Sound races. I’ll be looking for details from every part of the fleet – if you send me your insights I’ll work them into the race wrap. I’ll also be looking for video to include on the Wet Wednesday post. I’m not looking for the crew to drop the halyard to get some footage, but if you have some video, share it with me and I’ll share it with the sailish.com readers (even those not on Facebook….) Have a great time tomorrow!
Bruce has raced and cruised the Pacific Northwest his entire life. He earned a Bachelor’s of Science from the University of Washington in Biological Oceanography and learned meteorology “to keep from getting kicked around on the race course.” Bruce spent nearly two decades as Associate Publisher for Northwest Yachting Magazine, retiring in mid-2015, and was the chairman of the board of trustees for the Northwest Marine Trade Association in 2014. (photo of Bruce driving Playstation is a bit dated, but cool)